(no subject)

[gosling]

As someone wise once said, we need to decide if we want to be a community or a mobile party. Of course, different people will have different definitions of community and want different things.

Almost all villages have spaces which are adult-only, and often many spaces in which the expectation of children's behavior varies according to the place and the activities going on. It may be fine to go tearing wildly around an open meadow, but completely unacceptable in a small gathering space. Do not disrupt quiet or solemn ritual, but by all means ask questions later on. Children are generally expected to be part of the life and work of the community to the best of their ability (which is obviously going to vary according to the developmental stage.)

Trite as it can be, I find the village model useful. I want my child to grow up in within my community, my village. It matters immensely to me, and I expect that it does to other parents too. I want the children of my community around me. I also know that others may not, or may sometimes not. I don't expect my child to be welcome everywhere, and I expect him to behave appropriately where he is. I don't take him places where I feel that behaving appropriately for that setting is an unreasonable expectation. (I may guess wrong, but everyone makes mistakes. I tend to err on the side of assuming he is not welcome, but I also ask people if their invitation was ambiguous.)

Comments

Very well said

[lifecollage.livejournal.com]

I don't take him places where I feel that behaving appropriately for that setting is an unreasonable expectation.

And this is, in my mind, one of the places where many parents run into trouble. They want to go spend time at the library, but Munchkin is having a fussy-and-psycho day and can't tolerate being in the same place for more than 10 minutes. However, the adult wants to get their stuff done, and damnit they'll do it at the expense of the child's state of mind and the tolerance levels of the other people in the area.

This point is one of the reasons why I'm still so on the fence about having a child. I know that once there's a kidlet on the scene, we are at the mercy of their schedule for at least the first few years, solidly. Too bad if there's a great party we want to go to; if the small is having a bad night, one or both of us will be unable to go. We wouldn't bring a cranky babe to a party, just because we want to be there. I have witnessed other parents (out in the world and within our communities) who have occasionally been that...selfish is not quite right, but it's close enough. Unfortunately, everyone suffers at that point, including all the other parents who are then closed out of parties as more folks turn to having explicitly adult-only events to prevent such an occasion.

Thank you to both you and Chip for writing about this, by the by. It's a deadly topic for many folks we know, who believe any discussion of childrens' behavior is a commentary/critique of their parenting style by those of us who choose to be or are still for now childless.

And on a final note, every time I've been near B., he's been the epitome of a happy bubbly baby, so you two are obviously not bringing him 'round if he's not up to appropriate behavior for a space. Bravo.

Re: Very well said

[sunspiral.livejournal.com]

Looking at becoming a parent is terrifying. The first time roozle said "I'm pregnant" to me, I saw my entire life flash before my eyes. Literally. Being a parent means pretty much mortgaging your brain and most of your attention for several years, only then starting to get back bits and pieces. But one of the advantages of two (or more) parents is that you can perform Baby Juggling, and swap kid time back and forth so that you both/all get to do no-kid stuff. It works, trust me on this. And having kids is a total blast for most of the time that you're not being tempted to ship them to the local taxidermist.

The village model works if the children are raised understanding that they have a place in the community, and that it at least partially depends on their behavior. Consistently reminding them of this in positive and specific terms before taking them out in public is key. The model doesn't work when the parents interpret it as them being able to just dump their kid in the middle of other people and expect that their job will be done for them.

Re: Very well said

[gosling.livejournal.com]

I'm already seeing The Law of Conservation of Behavior. (Or perhaps my little extrovert is just bored out of his mind at home with just me, and hence way more cranky.) I fully intend to make it VERY clear to him that his participation requires his behavior be appropriate. I'm also trying to be very aware of what an environment is like, and not bringing him places I suspect he just doesn't have the maturity to handle yet.

Re: Very well said

[sunspiral.livejournal.com]

B clearly enjoys being around a bunch of people, and kids generally behave worse for their parents than for anyone else. But even the best-behaved kid can be expected to have a few apocalyptic meltdowns in public, it just happens and everyone can just deal.

Re: Very well said

[gosling.livejournal.com]

It drives me nuts when parents bring their kids somewhere for their convenience when the child so clearly is not coping. (There are moments that I regret my policy of never offering unsolicited parenting advice. Then I realize all that would be likely to ensue would be psychodrama and not anything useful. I do try to find things for kids to do, however, as often the problem is the child is bored and doesn't have any toys from home.)

[noire.livejournal.com]

You and I have had a number of discussions on this subject. And you know that I'm one of the most adamantly child-free folks around; I tend to avoid children and don't generally like or feel comfortable with them as a class.

Though I've realized lately that I *do* enjoy the company of more of the children of the community than not, which is quite shocking. Maybe if we just expect them to participate (to their level of ability) as community members, as happens in other cultures, we'd all get along better. And there are places/times when it is inappropriate to bring a child who is not capable of conforming to the standards of the environment (libraries, nice restaurants, etc.)

And--as you also know--I like your munchkin entirely for himself. Probably more in SPITE of being a baby, certainly not BECAUSE of it!

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

Boy howdy, yes.

[kimberlogic.livejournal.com]

Yours are very good points, stated extremely well! Kids are a really important part of community and I find that most parents are attentive and caring, teach their kids about good ways to deal with most situations. And just like anyone else, kids have good days and bad days, more cope and less cope.

And Benjamin, though I've not seen him as much as I'd like, is simply wonderful :)

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

Funny; J and I were juuuust having another one of our 'I'm not at all sure about having kids and he thinks we should worry about it later when our situation is more conducive i.e. when he has his next post-doc and I wonder how much more shelf-life my eggs have and all' discussions last night. I'm still on the fence for many reasons, but I will say that if we can be here for child-rearing time, I'm much more inclined to do it. Especially with you and C nearby.

Thank you (both) for posting on this. :)

[anistastia.livejournal.com]

followed back from a friend of a friend - thank you for phrasing this discussion so eloquently. Being a single mom with three kids makes the swap-off impossible so there are a lot of missed events - that's part of my reality - so be it. i DO bring my children to "family" community events and not only is it a chance to spend time with both family and friends, it's also a wonderful experience to raise my children's awareness of how diverse our community is - they've met gay and lesbian couples (in many cases with kids) and both pre and post op MTF and FTM with families as well as so many of the other varieties that make up who we are as a community. i know my children are more open and accepting because they've had the chance to learn about these lifestyles as individual people not as labels. Good things :-)